The Son I Knew Too Late: Sally Raymond's Guide to Resilience and Emotional Growth

Welcome to another enlightening episode of the Transforming Lives panel podcast, hosted by Sharmin Prince and Mitzy Dadoun. In this episode, we are honored to have Sally Raymond, an inspiring 82-year-old psychotherapist, as our guest. With over 29,000 sessions since 1991, Sally's journey into psychotherapy was profoundly shaped by the tragic suicide of her eldest son. Her mission is to help parents and individuals foster resilience and prevent struggles through her book, "The Son I Knew Too Late." Sally shares her insights on emotional quotient (EQ) and its transformative power in education, drawing from her 21 years of experience teaching EQ skills to students. Join us as we delve into Sally's remarkable life, her adventures, and her dedication to making a difference in the world. This episode promises to be a heartfelt exploration of parenting, emotional intelligence, and the resilience of the human spirit.

Speaker 2
Welcome to the Transforming Lives panel podcast to another episode. Oh, let me, okay. We just need to redo that. That's okay, go for it.

Welcome to another episode of the Transforming Lives panel podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Sharmin Prince.

Speaker 1
And I'm your other host, Mitzy Dadoun.

Speaker 2
Early before we start, we take a few deep breaths to become centered and grounded. So just join me in taking a deep inhale through your nose and let it go through your mouth. Now to deep inhale, hold that breath and then exhale slowly. Another one in.

Hold it. And let it go. Another one in. And as you take this breath in, just let go of the things that didn't serve you today.

Let go of the things that you have to do. Just let it go and be present for the next 25, 30, even 40 minutes. Thank you for joining us once again. And you know, We have a guest and our guest is Sally Raymond and she is 82 years young.

a psychotherapist with over 29,000 sessions since 1991, when the tragic suicide of her eldest son launched her on a lifelong mission to understand how we unknowingly set our children up for struggle and how to prevent it. Her book, The Son I Knew Too Late, a guide to help you survive and thrive, distills decades of insight to help parents and readers foster resilience at every age. A late bloomer, Sally earned top honors at UCSB in her 40s, modeled in her 50s, and starred in an award-winning documentary in her 60s. Beyond her therapy practice, she's a lifelong adventurer, swimming with dolphins and riding with the Navajo, and volunteers teaching EQ skills to students, transforming disengaged classrooms into spaces where youth discover their worth and agency.

What a beautiful bio. Welcome, Sally. Is there anything you would like to add?

Speaker 3
Hi, Sharmin. Thank you for this great honor. I really appreciate you and Mitzi being here for me and for what I have to say. I really want to make my life better in the world, and that's all I care about at this point in my life.

Speaker 2
So thank you.

Speaker 1
You know, they always say that parenting doesn't come with a manual, but it sounds like this is like the beginner manual that every parent should be given. And like you say, like, I mean, I've got kids who were almost 24 and 25, and I'd never heard of any of this before. And I had a mother who unfortunately had mental health issues and multiple times tried to commit suicide, and she ended up, you know, living to 75. it was that constant roller coaster.

And, you know, I just know that sort of having these guideposts would have been so helpful in trying to figure out how to help.

Speaker 3
Absolutely. I mean, when I came across every single psychotherapist, any counseling education always includes Eric Erickson. And we all have to learn it. But it should be out to everyone because it's so easy and it's simple and it's so helpful.

Anyone can understand it, anyone can use it as a guide throughout your whole life, whether it's for you or someone you love or a child or a grandparent, it works for everyone. and you can go and heal what some aspect didn't work, was where you fell into the negative. You can go back and it's not too late as long as you're alive. You can go back and do the work to repair places where you fell into the negative.

So I think it's one of the most important gifts that psychotherapy ever created. And I just find that it's a sin to me that it has been left undiscovered and unutilized all these years. And when after my son committed suicide and I had to go back, I would just become a therapist and I had the tools and training I'd never had as a mom. and i was like what did i miss and so i just went on a anthropological dig of his life in my life with him and i was like i have to find out everything and as i found the stories i either never knew or understood it was only

after i i had written i'd exhumed about 90 stories and I took them out of my file one day after years, really, and I was looking at this and I was like, how do I array them so that other people can benefit from what happened to John so they can avoid the kinds of problems John had? And immediately, the first thought I had was Eric Erickson. And so that's what I did.

I just put the stories within the context of what Erickson wrote at each age, and it just becomes very clear. And so I'm using John's stories as a negative example of what could be a positive. I put his stories as a teaching exemplar from the negative to show why you wouldn't want to do that so that you can do this, but it also shows you the different ways those negatives show up throughout life.

Speaker 2
Wow. That is so impressive. First thing, it's courageous for you to write about your son's story and share it with the world. So I want to commend you for that.

And Where can our readers find your book? Because I'm going to switch gears so we can talk a little more about you and EQ.

Speaker 3
Okay, great. Yeah, the book is on Amazon. You can also go to my website at sallyareman.com and you can order it through there as well. It has about seven stars on Amazon and the reviews are incredible.

And I'm just, I'm just trying to make my son's life matter and stay current in the world. His life is incredible. He did what few people could ever do. And so his example was very powerful and he never did anything wrong.

So he just did too well. So it made it easy to see exactly what happened, where he fell, where things fell apart for him. And I don't want it ever to happen again. to anyone, that's all.

So yeah, so that's where you can find the book and it's John's legacy book. It's all true as much as I know. It's very compelling and it'll teach you, it isn't a downer because John was a super success. So you'll see that despite everything, he was trying to do his level best to overcome these issues.

Speaker 2
And

Speaker 3
I didn't see it.

Speaker 2
Thank you. So Sally, you've taught EQ, I think I read, for 21 years to students? Yes. Now, I would like you to explain what's EQ, because some of our listeners may not know what it is.

And also, if you can share one or two surprising shifts that you have seen over two decades

Speaker 3
Yes, IQ is intellectual quotient, and that's what most of the education is basically focused on is teaching to IQ, which is, you know, English and biology and political science and all those, you know, academic courses. EQ is called emotional quotient. And it's something that schools have not taught since the Industrial Revolution because they wanted to focus on the technology and STEM classes. And the emotional quotient intelligence is what gives us the glue that keeps communities and people and individuals connected.

And we have lost that glue. And you're seeing it every which way right now. We have lost that glue. And so when my son committed suicide, one of the things I realized was that he could have really benefited from more emotional quotient, social emotional skills.

If he had learned how to manage his emotions better, if he had learned how to cope with people who were bullies better, if he had been able to do that, I think he would still be here. And so that was the one thing I learned and as part of my counseling skills, and also I was a Toastmaster for many years, and that they teach you how to speak and how to listen. with real power. And so every year I'm invited into classes by the teachers and I do it for free because it's too addictive.

And every year I watch a sea of dead bored eyes when I walk in. go on fire in eight weeks and you can't believe the eyes lighting up and you can't believe the hands rising and everybody's all excited because they find out in eight weeks how to make a difference, how to say something in a powerful way, how to use your whole body to say it, how to connect with your peers in ways that you could never do in a normal class. And the whole class bonds as a unit and they all care about each other.

And there's this wonderful community effect that happens every single time. And the kids realize that they know how to succeed. They know how to succeed when they walk out. They know they can do it.

And that's what's so beautiful. And that's not being taught. And it's been a terrible, it's a terrible loss. And as an example, you asked many years ago, I went into an at-risk class.

I mean, these were very marginalized kids. And when I walked in, the teacher greeted me by saying, these kids will be lucky to get a job at McDonald's. And I was like, what a terrible teacher. if that's what you think, what do you expect these kids to do?

If that's your expectation? Well, in eight weeks, I mean, they had to create a virtual enterprise situation where somebody would be a CFO and a CIO and a CEO, and it was a make-believe organization. And I was teaching them how to speak and how to be effective in terms of how they were talking about their particular virtual role. And after eight weeks, they had to go and they went to Washington, D.C.

to compete against 103 schools nationwide. And these are all virtual enterprise classes. And some of them are the gifted program, and some are the at-risk kids. And that class swept five of the eight categories.

Speaker 1
That's phenomenal. That's so fantastic. What do you find is sort of the best age to kind of get in there and do this with them?

Speaker 3
Well, I think any age is the right age, but I have been invited into basically juniors of high school. And believe me, they just really, it seems like that's a perfect age for them to really learn that you know, these skills because this is where they're going to go out into the world not too long from now and they have to, you know, make their mark. They have to do all this adult stuff and they don't know what, how to do it. They don't know what's involved.

They have no idea, but if they know how to use their body and voice and eye contact and learn how to listen and critically analyze and say things that may be critical, but in a way that, you know, end up saying the other person will say thank you for that i had no idea you know you have got a lot of skills and then you know you can then you know you can and you know how and so it seems like the the 16 year old 15 16 and 17 those are such a great age and they just really just embrace it. They just really embrace it.

And every single year, I cannot not do it because it's too, too much fun.

Speaker 2
Thank you, Sally. Now at 82, you're still swimming with dolphins. Yes. And galloping on horseback.

Oh, does your own zest for life fuel your work, teaching EQ, and still practicing psychotherapy?

Speaker 3
Oh, I don't think I'll ever quit, Charmaine. It's just too good. I was a tomboy growing up. I was the only girl in an all-boy clique.

And I learned that I could be independent and I could be out in nature. And I really reveled in all of that freedom. And I often was by myself and I always loved dolphins and I always wanted to go swimming with them. And one day I met a man who is an artist in Santa Barbara and he does a lot of bronzes and dolphins.

And that was Bud Bottoms. And I was telling him that our dream was to swim with dolphins. And he said, oh, I do it all the time. And I went, you do?

And he said, yeah. He said, just go out there. And he said, you want to make sure that you're a gentle person. Because he said, if you're aggressive, they'll pick that up and they'll punch you with their noses and they can kill you.

But he said, if you're a wimp or you're a gentle person, they'll welcome you. And I was like, I'm a wimp. So I ended up finding another person who was interested in doing that, too. And I found some dolphins, and we swam out to them.

And they absolutely welcomed me into their pod. And they started showing off and doing the most delightful things you ever saw in your life. And it was just so magical. I was just absolutely entranced.

and it was adorable and I just felt so welcomed by them and they've been a part of my life for probably 25 years and I just go looking for the fins and then if I see them I'll swim out because there's so much happy energy in the water. and they have those echolocation, so they're actually zapping you with their radar, and you can feel it. If you stay very long with them, it starts to hurt, but usually it's pretty benign. But they're just checking you out, and they're checking you out from the inside out.

They get to know who you are inside you, and so they've really been lovely for me, but I wouldn't recommend anybody do it, because they truly are wild animals, and apparently they are very different for different people. And so for me, they've been wonderful, but I can't guarantee that would happen to anybody else. And I also have galloped through Monument Valley with the Navajo overnight, and that was spectacular. I mean, you get on these Indian paints and they say, you like to gallop?

And you have to say yes. And then they go, ha! And then the whole, all the running hours is just take off running and you're holding on for dear life and there's no trails. And you're going down into washes and over everything.

And you're just riding, running headlong into Monument Valley, which was just absolutely gorgeous on a full moon. It was the most exciting thing I ever did. And it was so great to feel like a wild Indian and know how it felt to be an Indian. It was fantastic.

So that was a special highlight of my life. And I do love horses, always have been, but I never had one.

Speaker 1
You know, so much of what you're saying is really about people opening their heart and listening and being there for each other and being there in the moment.

Speaker 3
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, I love to say yes. I'm a bit of an adventurist, and so I just trust myself.

The worst thing that could happen is I could die, but I'm going to have a lot of fun living while I do. So I figure the biggest risk is not to take one.

Speaker 2
Sally, this has been a delight. Before we end, I'd like to ask you some rapid fire questions. OK. What's the most emotional blind spot parents have with their children?

Speaker 3
The most emotional blind spot is that parents live in the cup half full. We are always swimming in the cup half full, leading to hope, leading to life, and we miss, we can miss kids who are swimming in the cup half empty. and we don't even see them. And then we are the ones, they would say, the children would say, you have stranded us.

Speaker 2
Okay. The biggest myth about suicide is?

Speaker 3
To say or think, there's nothing I can do. That's the biggest myth. Yes, there's everything you can do. You speak up, you ask, you talk to that person, you get them help, you don't strand them, you are there for them, you are 100%.

That's how a lot of people go, oh, there's nothing you can do. And I've heard that with respect to my own son too. I heard it and I was like, are you kidding? Because when you say that, you have already stranded that person.

because you've given up.

Speaker 2
Your son's death taught you blank about happiness.

Speaker 3
My son's death taught me that what happens to us does not define us. What defines us is what we do about it. And so with my son, I lost him and I wish I'd had the chance to say, talk to him and know that he was in trouble, but I didn't get that opportunity. But all I could say is, nothing is worth killing yourself for.

But at the same time, whatever happened that brings you down, doesn't really matter at all. What matters is what you do about it. And that's what I did with my book. I mean, it was my job to turn his life into something that would stay on earth forever and be of help and benefit, not in the way he would have ever done it, but he would have.

He would have been incredible, but the only way I knew how.

Speaker 2
Modeling in your 50s, Vanity or life lesson?

Speaker 3
Life lesson. It wasn't my idea, Sharmin. I had a surrogate son who came and moved into my son's room before he died. And then afterwards he became like family.

And he was like, you're going to get a portfolio. And I was like, why? And he was like, just do it. And I've always tried to tell that guy no, and I've never been successful yet.

And so finally I got some pictures and And then the next thing I knew I had, the photographer had given the pictures to a modeling agent and they called me in and I became a model. And what was great though is that I'm also a psychotherapist. And so sometimes I would be modeling and see child abuse happening and I would report it and I would get them in a lot of trouble. And that is a cruel and vicious world in some cases, especially for young, innocent, beautiful kids.

I was basically a police person. I didn't want to keep doing it very long because everything they put on me in terms of the beautiful clothes, I'd sit there and go, I got to have it.

Speaker 2
What is a toxic statement parents see without realizing it?

Speaker 3
You'll be okay. That was the last words my ex-husband said to my son when he got the call. He just said, you'll be all right, and hung up on him.

Speaker 2
What should be a parent's or an adult's response to a teen when they say, nobody gets me? Talk to me.

Speaker 3
I wanna understand you.

Speaker 2
And finally, what's your proof that life gives second chances?

Speaker 3
Life is an emergent process. One and one don't make two, one and one make three. You can't predict what is gonna happen from one moment to the next. It's a mystery, it's a discovery process, and you have a lot you can do about it, but you have to stay alive.

Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you so much, Sally. This has been so emotional and thought-provoking, and I think it will really help so many people who kind of feel there's something wrong, but they just don't know where to start or how to. Your book and the information from Eric Erickson, you know, this is, as you say, something that you have the baby and it should kind of come as the next thing is, you know, here's your starter manual.

And thank you for sharing such a personal and difficult situation so openly so that others can hopefully prevent something similar from happening.

Speaker 3
Yeah, that's my hope. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I mean, I can't bring John back, but I can sure tell you, he taught me so much.

Speaker 1
He taught us all so much because you've shared. That's

Speaker 3
my hope. Thank you. Mitzy, you're great. Sharmin, you're great too.

Speaker 1
Thank you so much.